A major red flag that points toward toxic masculinity is the man who is offended by weakness and vulnerability:
Once I took my small son to breakfast at a busy diner with some female friends; he was about one, and was upset by the nearby table of noisy men who were boisterous and loud (but not unpleasant or impolite). They were blue-collar working men in their 40s and 50s who had clearly all just gotten off a long shift and letting loose with greasy diner food and some alcohol. The baby kept looking over at them, making a sad face and wimpering quietly about their noise, and then turning and looking at me for reassurance. He was worried, but so far still enjoying his breakfast and had not disturbed the bustle of the restaurant. One of the men noticed and mentioned it to the table, and they all had a good hearty laugh about the sad baby making sad baby faces. That would have been the end of it, but as the men stood up to leave and pay their bill, one large burly bully came over and teased my little one by crying loudly in his face 'Wah Wah Wah'. He probably thought he was being funny, and he may have been a bit drunk, but the baby was terrified and immediately began to wail, making everyone in the restaurant stop and look. I glared at him and he left quickly, but none of the other men he was with told him off. Before we left, the waitress apologized to us.
It took me a while to figure out why I was shocked by this encounter. It wasn't just that a total stranger who probably had his kids of his own had the gall to come to our table and treat my boy callously. (My babe recovered quickly once their table had emptied.) It was that the man's actions showed clearly that he could not handle the presence of my child's weakness and anxiety, that he expected even a one year old to "man up". Men who are expected to 'man up' from a young age become intolerant of other people's fear and weaknesses, because it reminds them of their own vulnerability. They quickly forget how small they used to be and how weak they may become with age, and when they are confronted by it, it embarrasses them. They become uncomfortable and lash out in unpredictable ways. This is the epitome of toxic masculinity. Gentle men are not offended by the inherent vulnerability of very young children, the elderly, and other people who are smaller or frailer than they are.
Cait: I'm on an (admittedly) Quixotic quest to get people to stop using the phrase "toxic masculinity." There are indeed many toxic men—and toxic women—out there in the world. But it is my contention that masculinity (in men) and femininity (in women) are inherently good constellations of virtues that cannot by definition be toxic. In his 1st letter to the church in Corinth, Pauls exhorts the listeners (presumably to the men in the audience) to "act like men." Elsewhere he says that men are the "glory of god" and women are the "glory of men." We are in Schaeffer's words, "glorious ruins," but the essence of our creation as men and women is both good and glorious, although ruined by sin.
This is a great piece! Really enjoyed it, thank you for sharing.
My dad used to read us the absolutely terrifying Jim Corbett stories when I was a kid. Usually right before bedtime. Sometimes we even played a frankly terrifying game called Tiger In The Dark where he pretended to be the tiger and hid, and we children pretended to hunt him. In order to play we also had to turn out all the lights, so we were hunting the tiger in the pitch black. Unsurprisingly we often couldn’t sleep after playing this game 😂
In terms of what to look for in a man - I think carefully observing how a man treats his mother and sisters (if he has them) is a very useful indicator of how he is likely to treat you as his wife. Also how does he treat those who are his social inferiors - waitresses, checkout assistants etc?
How does he handle frustration? What is his reaction when things don’t go his way? Does he get angry and react easily to minor inconveniences?
In response to one of your discussion questions, one of the first things that helped me to notice what a good man my then-future husband is was seeing how he interacted with other women, particularly his mother and sister. In every interaction with them, he was attentive, helpful, and affectionate. He treated me
In the same respectful way during our courtship and now during our marriage as well. In the same vein, he goes out of his way to be courteous to everyone, including during phone conversations with customer service reps - going so far as to call them by name when he thanks them.
So, long story short, that would be my answer to how to identify a good man - how does he treat the women he’s closest to, and how does he treat people who are “serving” him or otherwise easy targets for anger and frustration?
A lot of people have noted the sister test! Interestingly, one of the dudes I dated who had the worst understanding of how to treat me was from a fatherless family of all boys. Never saw his dad treat his mom well, and never had a sister to care for. Tragic. He meant well, but he was set up for failure.
A good gentleman is still imperfect but he's willing to learn. Good food for thought. My biggest red flag is my gut feeling and behavior of habitual instability in a man.
This is wonderful, thank you! Maybe this is why I end up writing so many male characters compared to the number of women in my stories, when I generally consider myself to be writing for women. I love writing men who feel safe, who are gentle and protective.
Since 2018 I’ve had a hard time with trusting men, not due to any specific instance but just because of all of the crudeness that seems to be common to (many) men (and women as well) in our society these days. There’s only one man I know whom I have ever told that I feel safe with him, one of my friends/adopted brothers. He’s always kind and gentle, never purposely hurtful to anyone, is protective of his sisters, always making time for me when I think I’m being annoying and he’s already busy, and he’s always understanding, in a way I rarely get from women. He accepts what I say and feels for me when I’m having a hard time, when other people might tend to just point out someone else’s problems. He isn’t into the crude jokes or ways of society, either, and he’s always trying to help everyone, making sure they’re okay.
I also have a tendency to try not to cry or voice fears around men, because of those who scoff at it, so a man who wouldn’t do that and is instead comforting and tries to walk me through it and listens to me is definitely a green flag for me.
I wish there were more men like him! I know how beautiful and wonderful men can be, so I really love them very much, but there are so few individuals I know in my small circle whom I enjoy being with.
I'm an agnostic ex-manwhore ('playboy' is for attractive men), but this is probably a perspective you're missing on your very Christian blog. So I'll leave it as it may be useful. I will not try to seduce anyone from the path of righteousness (and I am NOT sarcastic; I know your way is probably better but it is too late).
Growing up in a secular, heavily left-leaning environment, it was never exactly too clear to me what a good man was. We all knew what bad men were--sexist, violent, etc., and good men were supposed to be supportive to women, understanding, empathetic...but every so often you'd find out the good men were really bad men, or they'd decide something you were doing was really oppressive. I did come to the conclusion that the way to avoid being accused of harassment was to *never show sexual interest in a woman*. (Theoretically it was OK if she liked you, but that's hard to tell for some of us ahead of time, and anyway she can always change her mind and spread rumors.) Obviously there are drawbacks to this when you actually want to date, and I started very, very late. (The whole thing struck me as vaguely Victorian, but I figured I had just been born in the wrong time of history--look at all the gay guys who had to do the same thing a few decades ago.)
As for the code of conduct--well, if you make her at all uncomfortable, she's allowed to get you fired. So how do you never make a woman uncomfortable? Never ask one out or do anything vaguely sexual in person! Don't even *touch* one or she might say something bad! So I finally did start dating online (in my late 20s!) where I could theoretically have a digital 'paper trail' via text message for everything, so if it ever went to court I at least would have the truth on my side.
As for women reacting badly--of course. There's a famous cartoon:
The dirty little secret is that women find 'gentlemen' much less attractive. A lot of 'feminist' women were...how do I put this for a Christian audience? rather fond of being treated in an 'unfeminist' fashion behind closed doors. Indeed, it's somewhat easier since you usually discuss ahead of time what you do and don't like and what both parties are and are not willing to consent to, so while there's still room for bad faith actions miscommunications are significantly decreased.
I don't think men are 'allowed' to be afraid of women, but a lot of us still are. False accusations, divorce settlements that leave us working for years for our ex-wives, etc. I decided to die alone rather than risk divorce and alimony--'non serviam', as an angel who fell on hard times (though it was his fault, after all) supposedly said a while ago. And--well, he was refusing to serve God! God might be genuinely worthy of service, but an ex-wife?
Would I have rather had a traditional upbringing and four-decades-going marriage like my Boomer-vintage parents, with clearly demarcated roles and at least one (disappointing) offspring? Sure. I would have liked to be 6 feet high and born a king, too.
I don't believe the world is as easy as that, that you can "sort between" good and bad people" (except for a small portion of the population, both men and women, who perhaps scores high on the dark triad traits), but conduct, sincerity and levels of empathy are pointers. I believe violent behavior (in both sexes) comes from either manipulative personality traits or from a deep unease/frustration of the world. Male agression (psychopaths excluded) tend to be affective, hence balanced men, secure "in their own skin" and with a healthy level of testosterone, achievement and stoicism often times are "good" men.
What is your code of conduct towards women and how did you learn it?
Respect (for all people, not just women), soft spoken, but firm, empathic and curious. Also because of my size, I try to counter my physical size with openess, warmth and care. I try to downplay my physicality, and be as unthreatening as I am able, also verbally; I don't raise my voice to women the way I would to a man, I never "blow up my chest" or "get in their face" (as I would to a man).
I learned from my father, my male teachers and culture (books, films, TV). And of course by talking to women.
Have you had women react badly to what you consider gentlemanly behavior?
Yes, but only a few women. Some women experience my "gentlemanly conduct" as condescending: "I am totally capable of opening the doors/pulling out the chair (etc) my self, thank you very much! I am physically capable of defending myself!" A few women mistake my conduct as "flirty" and inviting and react badly when I turn them down.
Are men allowed to be afraid of women?
I'm not afraid of my wife's fists - but, her powers over me still (sometimes) scares me.
Yes, (some) women can, and do, hurt men, just like (some) men hurt women. (I have personally never witnessed any man in my "circle" be abusive towards women. But I have witnessed women (more than one, and more than once) being abusive towards men; physically (pinching, slapping, scratching, tearing their hair) and verbally; publically demeaning the mans prowess as a lover, his penis size, his strength, his parentingskills etc.
If so, what do they fear?
We fear being rejected or left - we grew up being dependant of a woman (our mothers), if she left us, we be dead! We fear being bereft of our children. We fear being humiliated (see above). We fear your tears! When all else fails, you can cry. And a womans tears are cryptonite. If you see a man and a woman in conlict, and she is crying - who do you percieve to be the a**hole?
We fear that you would put us in a situation in which we are powerless to escape.
You want to leave? I am powerless (unless I become phiscal, and where does that leave me?)
You emasculate me in public? How do I respond?
You cry? What else is there for me to do but to beg forgiveness?
But I have to put my trust in you; (because I need you) - that you would never use your knowledge of me, of my insecurities, my love for my children, my love for you, to hurt and shame me.
I understand why women are scared of men, of our physicallity, our sexuality, our strangeness to your ways of thinking and behaving. But we are just as scared of you!
"I try to downplay my physicality, and be as unthreatening as I am able"
It's interesting how much our physical looks and size affect our relationships and social dynamics. Physiognomy is instinctive. Some men just look threatening based on size/face so they need to move and talk more slowly and find ways to downplay their physicality as you mentioned. I am average height but very lean and I guess I look approachable so I don't have quite the burden that you do in that area. Still, it's an inescapable fact of life that even if you are good man you have to learn how to present yourself so others perceive this to be indeed true.
A major red flag that points toward toxic masculinity is the man who is offended by weakness and vulnerability:
Once I took my small son to breakfast at a busy diner with some female friends; he was about one, and was upset by the nearby table of noisy men who were boisterous and loud (but not unpleasant or impolite). They were blue-collar working men in their 40s and 50s who had clearly all just gotten off a long shift and letting loose with greasy diner food and some alcohol. The baby kept looking over at them, making a sad face and wimpering quietly about their noise, and then turning and looking at me for reassurance. He was worried, but so far still enjoying his breakfast and had not disturbed the bustle of the restaurant. One of the men noticed and mentioned it to the table, and they all had a good hearty laugh about the sad baby making sad baby faces. That would have been the end of it, but as the men stood up to leave and pay their bill, one large burly bully came over and teased my little one by crying loudly in his face 'Wah Wah Wah'. He probably thought he was being funny, and he may have been a bit drunk, but the baby was terrified and immediately began to wail, making everyone in the restaurant stop and look. I glared at him and he left quickly, but none of the other men he was with told him off. Before we left, the waitress apologized to us.
It took me a while to figure out why I was shocked by this encounter. It wasn't just that a total stranger who probably had his kids of his own had the gall to come to our table and treat my boy callously. (My babe recovered quickly once their table had emptied.) It was that the man's actions showed clearly that he could not handle the presence of my child's weakness and anxiety, that he expected even a one year old to "man up". Men who are expected to 'man up' from a young age become intolerant of other people's fear and weaknesses, because it reminds them of their own vulnerability. They quickly forget how small they used to be and how weak they may become with age, and when they are confronted by it, it embarrasses them. They become uncomfortable and lash out in unpredictable ways. This is the epitome of toxic masculinity. Gentle men are not offended by the inherent vulnerability of very young children, the elderly, and other people who are smaller or frailer than they are.
Just reading about this encounter made me tense up. Geez Louise. What a bully.
That guy is a class A jerk.
Cait: I'm on an (admittedly) Quixotic quest to get people to stop using the phrase "toxic masculinity." There are indeed many toxic men—and toxic women—out there in the world. But it is my contention that masculinity (in men) and femininity (in women) are inherently good constellations of virtues that cannot by definition be toxic. In his 1st letter to the church in Corinth, Pauls exhorts the listeners (presumably to the men in the audience) to "act like men." Elsewhere he says that men are the "glory of god" and women are the "glory of men." We are in Schaeffer's words, "glorious ruins," but the essence of our creation as men and women is both good and glorious, although ruined by sin.
This is a great piece! Really enjoyed it, thank you for sharing.
My dad used to read us the absolutely terrifying Jim Corbett stories when I was a kid. Usually right before bedtime. Sometimes we even played a frankly terrifying game called Tiger In The Dark where he pretended to be the tiger and hid, and we children pretended to hunt him. In order to play we also had to turn out all the lights, so we were hunting the tiger in the pitch black. Unsurprisingly we often couldn’t sleep after playing this game 😂
In terms of what to look for in a man - I think carefully observing how a man treats his mother and sisters (if he has them) is a very useful indicator of how he is likely to treat you as his wife. Also how does he treat those who are his social inferiors - waitresses, checkout assistants etc?
How does he handle frustration? What is his reaction when things don’t go his way? Does he get angry and react easily to minor inconveniences?
Thank you for sharing this!
In response to one of your discussion questions, one of the first things that helped me to notice what a good man my then-future husband is was seeing how he interacted with other women, particularly his mother and sister. In every interaction with them, he was attentive, helpful, and affectionate. He treated me
In the same respectful way during our courtship and now during our marriage as well. In the same vein, he goes out of his way to be courteous to everyone, including during phone conversations with customer service reps - going so far as to call them by name when he thanks them.
So, long story short, that would be my answer to how to identify a good man - how does he treat the women he’s closest to, and how does he treat people who are “serving” him or otherwise easy targets for anger and frustration?
A lot of people have noted the sister test! Interestingly, one of the dudes I dated who had the worst understanding of how to treat me was from a fatherless family of all boys. Never saw his dad treat his mom well, and never had a sister to care for. Tragic. He meant well, but he was set up for failure.
A good gentleman is still imperfect but he's willing to learn. Good food for thought. My biggest red flag is my gut feeling and behavior of habitual instability in a man.
This is wonderful, thank you! Maybe this is why I end up writing so many male characters compared to the number of women in my stories, when I generally consider myself to be writing for women. I love writing men who feel safe, who are gentle and protective.
Since 2018 I’ve had a hard time with trusting men, not due to any specific instance but just because of all of the crudeness that seems to be common to (many) men (and women as well) in our society these days. There’s only one man I know whom I have ever told that I feel safe with him, one of my friends/adopted brothers. He’s always kind and gentle, never purposely hurtful to anyone, is protective of his sisters, always making time for me when I think I’m being annoying and he’s already busy, and he’s always understanding, in a way I rarely get from women. He accepts what I say and feels for me when I’m having a hard time, when other people might tend to just point out someone else’s problems. He isn’t into the crude jokes or ways of society, either, and he’s always trying to help everyone, making sure they’re okay.
I also have a tendency to try not to cry or voice fears around men, because of those who scoff at it, so a man who wouldn’t do that and is instead comforting and tries to walk me through it and listens to me is definitely a green flag for me.
I wish there were more men like him! I know how beautiful and wonderful men can be, so I really love them very much, but there are so few individuals I know in my small circle whom I enjoy being with.
I'm an agnostic ex-manwhore ('playboy' is for attractive men), but this is probably a perspective you're missing on your very Christian blog. So I'll leave it as it may be useful. I will not try to seduce anyone from the path of righteousness (and I am NOT sarcastic; I know your way is probably better but it is too late).
Growing up in a secular, heavily left-leaning environment, it was never exactly too clear to me what a good man was. We all knew what bad men were--sexist, violent, etc., and good men were supposed to be supportive to women, understanding, empathetic...but every so often you'd find out the good men were really bad men, or they'd decide something you were doing was really oppressive. I did come to the conclusion that the way to avoid being accused of harassment was to *never show sexual interest in a woman*. (Theoretically it was OK if she liked you, but that's hard to tell for some of us ahead of time, and anyway she can always change her mind and spread rumors.) Obviously there are drawbacks to this when you actually want to date, and I started very, very late. (The whole thing struck me as vaguely Victorian, but I figured I had just been born in the wrong time of history--look at all the gay guys who had to do the same thing a few decades ago.)
As for the code of conduct--well, if you make her at all uncomfortable, she's allowed to get you fired. So how do you never make a woman uncomfortable? Never ask one out or do anything vaguely sexual in person! Don't even *touch* one or she might say something bad! So I finally did start dating online (in my late 20s!) where I could theoretically have a digital 'paper trail' via text message for everything, so if it ever went to court I at least would have the truth on my side.
As for women reacting badly--of course. There's a famous cartoon:
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/hello-human-resources
The dirty little secret is that women find 'gentlemen' much less attractive. A lot of 'feminist' women were...how do I put this for a Christian audience? rather fond of being treated in an 'unfeminist' fashion behind closed doors. Indeed, it's somewhat easier since you usually discuss ahead of time what you do and don't like and what both parties are and are not willing to consent to, so while there's still room for bad faith actions miscommunications are significantly decreased.
I don't think men are 'allowed' to be afraid of women, but a lot of us still are. False accusations, divorce settlements that leave us working for years for our ex-wives, etc. I decided to die alone rather than risk divorce and alimony--'non serviam', as an angel who fell on hard times (though it was his fault, after all) supposedly said a while ago. And--well, he was refusing to serve God! God might be genuinely worthy of service, but an ex-wife?
Would I have rather had a traditional upbringing and four-decades-going marriage like my Boomer-vintage parents, with clearly demarcated roles and at least one (disappointing) offspring? Sure. I would have liked to be 6 feet high and born a king, too.
Men—How do you sort between good and bad guys?
I don't believe the world is as easy as that, that you can "sort between" good and bad people" (except for a small portion of the population, both men and women, who perhaps scores high on the dark triad traits), but conduct, sincerity and levels of empathy are pointers. I believe violent behavior (in both sexes) comes from either manipulative personality traits or from a deep unease/frustration of the world. Male agression (psychopaths excluded) tend to be affective, hence balanced men, secure "in their own skin" and with a healthy level of testosterone, achievement and stoicism often times are "good" men.
What is your code of conduct towards women and how did you learn it?
Respect (for all people, not just women), soft spoken, but firm, empathic and curious. Also because of my size, I try to counter my physical size with openess, warmth and care. I try to downplay my physicality, and be as unthreatening as I am able, also verbally; I don't raise my voice to women the way I would to a man, I never "blow up my chest" or "get in their face" (as I would to a man).
I learned from my father, my male teachers and culture (books, films, TV). And of course by talking to women.
Have you had women react badly to what you consider gentlemanly behavior?
Yes, but only a few women. Some women experience my "gentlemanly conduct" as condescending: "I am totally capable of opening the doors/pulling out the chair (etc) my self, thank you very much! I am physically capable of defending myself!" A few women mistake my conduct as "flirty" and inviting and react badly when I turn them down.
Are men allowed to be afraid of women?
I'm not afraid of my wife's fists - but, her powers over me still (sometimes) scares me.
Yes, (some) women can, and do, hurt men, just like (some) men hurt women. (I have personally never witnessed any man in my "circle" be abusive towards women. But I have witnessed women (more than one, and more than once) being abusive towards men; physically (pinching, slapping, scratching, tearing their hair) and verbally; publically demeaning the mans prowess as a lover, his penis size, his strength, his parentingskills etc.
If so, what do they fear?
We fear being rejected or left - we grew up being dependant of a woman (our mothers), if she left us, we be dead! We fear being bereft of our children. We fear being humiliated (see above). We fear your tears! When all else fails, you can cry. And a womans tears are cryptonite. If you see a man and a woman in conlict, and she is crying - who do you percieve to be the a**hole?
We fear that you would put us in a situation in which we are powerless to escape.
You want to leave? I am powerless (unless I become phiscal, and where does that leave me?)
You emasculate me in public? How do I respond?
You cry? What else is there for me to do but to beg forgiveness?
But I have to put my trust in you; (because I need you) - that you would never use your knowledge of me, of my insecurities, my love for my children, my love for you, to hurt and shame me.
I understand why women are scared of men, of our physicallity, our sexuality, our strangeness to your ways of thinking and behaving. But we are just as scared of you!
This was a good read in general, thank you!
@ Ole Christian Bjerke
Appreciate your take.
"I try to downplay my physicality, and be as unthreatening as I am able"
It's interesting how much our physical looks and size affect our relationships and social dynamics. Physiognomy is instinctive. Some men just look threatening based on size/face so they need to move and talk more slowly and find ways to downplay their physicality as you mentioned. I am average height but very lean and I guess I look approachable so I don't have quite the burden that you do in that area. Still, it's an inescapable fact of life that even if you are good man you have to learn how to present yourself so others perceive this to be indeed true.